For context see this.
A few days ago Annie and I ran into a woman who we hadn't seen in two or three years. I will refer to her as "D". D, unlike most of the people we know, is a libertarian. We were making the standard small talk including the usual chit-chat about out daughters. Annie mentioned that Ayn, who is now 16, has been working full time since February and that she went to Paris in August to meet with some friends she made on-line. D was, well, shocked. "You let her go!?" I was very surprised by this reaction, given that she is libertarian. Annie, who handles these things better than I do, simply said, "we raised her as a libertarian, it would not have made sense to tell her she could not go." The objections continued along the lines of "But she is only 16 and does not have good judgement/experience/etc". At some point I got involved and, perhaps rudely, pointed out that this applies to most adults, that we did tell our daughter these things, and that she decided to go anyway. Continuing, I asked if we should have used force to stop her. D was rather flustered and muttered something to the effect that she should not have been allowed to go, then made an excuse to get away from us.
However, this encounter did get me thinking. Ayn has been working full time, in violation of child-labor laws, since she was 15. She pays all of her expenses, and makes a real monetary contribution by paying a utility bill every month and occasionally buying food that she and her sister like, but Annie and I do not. Annie and I were against the Paris trip and let Ayn know all the reasons why. She decided to go anyway. So she went.
We could have stopped her using nominally non-coercive methods. We could have told her that she could not leave her dogs at home if she wasn't here. That would have made the trip significantly more expensive. We also could have given her some variant of a "my house, my rules" type speech. But none of those things would have made sense. Nor would they have been consistent with how we live our lives and everything we have taught her.
Since she has returned, she has been hit with a few surprise expenses. Just the kind of thing that Annie warned her about, but she dismissed. I think that it is far better for her to get this type of shock now, while she is still living at home. She has learned. And perhaps, but only perhaps, also learned that her parents are not completely clueless. That we do know a thing or two.
When all is said and done, she is self-supporting. If she had to move out and pay rent, she could. With no problem. Therefore, she is entitled to do what she likes with her money, and in fact, with her life. Annie and I will continue to give her our opinion, but ultimately she is the one who must decide.
So, what if she has beer for breakfast? I see no reason to change what I wrote a bit more than three years ago: "Freedom is the answer, what is the question?" What confuses me is why a libertarian would fail to see this.
Congratulations.
It appears that you’re handling the most trying times of parenting very well, and consistently with your principles. It also seems that your eldest, who’s younger than the youngest of Lobo’s first brood, is far more self-sufficient than all three of them—a state that gives us cause for concern, but about which I cannot say more publicly without possibly violating individuals’ comfort or privacy. Thanks for the update.
Indeed, beer for breakfast at home is far preferable to the limited range of options available if one were to follow the state’s diktats.
As for your confusion, not knowing D, I’d hazard a guess that she is really a leashitarian.
Perhaps
but I am not sure that I am handling it very well :) There are times.....
OTOH things are much better here than in the house I grew up in, if only because we have real conversations as opposed to "You will do X"/"No I won't". Or worse "Yeah, whatever" then go off and do something stupid purely for spite.
As long as rights are not violated, and the only person she will harm is herself, we will restrict ourselves to commenting. Or nagging, depending on the POV. But there are times.....
Yeah, D is a leashitarian. More freedom than we have now, but not too much.
Cool!
I found this strangely inspiring. It gives me hope for my own offspring.
My older daughter, who is 17, has been almost self-supporting since she was about 14 (since she lives with her mother 700 miles away, and her mother is a "mother" by biology only). She has had some difficult times, but is learning and growing into someone I actually respect.
Great story!
I was raised pretty much like Ayn, thank heavens. I decided to get married at 17. I had been keeping the house and carrying much of the family responsibility for years at this point, and thought I'd be much happier in my own home.
My mother tried to help me see what a mistake that would be (the person I wanted to marry was divorced and older... lots of other history there), but I would not be discouraged and went ahead with it.
Anyway, I was allowed the freedom to make my own decisions and reap the consequences. She was as supportive as she could be, and was by my side when he filed to divorce me 17 years later so he could marry his girlfriend of 2 years. (Another long story.)
When all was said and done, I was a stronger person and learned much from it. And she, bless her, never even came close to saying, "I told you so."
It's never easy
It's never easy to stand by when you think someone you care for might be about to make mistakes (I know!),but of course, without 'mistakes' (which might be better and less subjectively labelled as individual experiences) there can't really be much learning.
It's not just dealing with kids (of which I have no experience at all) that is difficult in this context - there comes a time when parents get older and roles between them and their offspring tend to reverse somewhat, and the same difficulties apply.
Don't I know...
My two grown sons have not yet even come close to trying to make decisions for me, though they both frankly thought I was insane to move to Wyoming. But, since I was clearly dying there in California, and have found vibrant health here, they have little to say about it these days.
They are both individual sovereigns and, though we all love each other very much, each one minds their own business unless asked for help. Can't get much better than that. :)
I don't know what may happen down the road. Guess I'll wait until I get there and find out. :)