A Month in Review

Sunni's picture

Not just any ol’ month, though. As I mentioned yesterday, we had a farewell feast last night. For the past month we’ve had a Belarusian houseguest. He works with Lobo at Casey Research, and was here primarily to get a lot of hands-on training. That was accomplished; and of course, we tried to give him as rich a sampler of American life and Pacific Northwest beauty as we could. Naturally, woven through our interactions were many threads relating to freedom. He may have provided me as much food for thought as we did him.

Allow me to back up a little, first. We met this young man, whom I’ll label “D” for the rest of this ramble, at the Lithuania Liberty English Camp a couple of years ago. He distinguished himself not only by his intellect, but also by his warm, gentle spirit—no small feat, since nearly all the students were cheerful and generous. D also participated in the Georgia camp that same year; and it was there that his initiative really shone through. Even though he was a student, D frequently helped the organizers and staff with various logistical, organizational, and technical challenges that arose over the course of the camp; and in doing so, displayed an effortless candor blended with tact that made it a pleasure to talk with him, even as he upbraided someone. I should know: toward the end of the Lithuania camp, he told me that my classes were not really sufficiently in-depth for the students. That was the dawn of my realization that different cultures produce differing perspectives on what freedom is, and how best to achieve it.

My focus in the classes was an idea that had been something of a revelation to me, and which I address here with some regularity: that all freedom is personal. To the Belarusian students (less so the Lithuanians and Ukrainians, and even less so the Georgians, it seemed to me—but all far above Americans), stating that was akin to pointing out noses on people’s faces. We didn’t have time at the camps to pursue the subject, so I was glad of the opportunity to follow up with D at our leisure.

One might think that a month with a guest would strain a household—yet such is D’s grace that the few misunderstandings that arose were easily resolved. He jumped in to our cooking and dish-doing rotations, making an enormous quantity of delicious draniki (potato pancakes) for his first meal (with my help, as he doesn’t cook much at home). His observations and perceptive comments often helped me see both family interactions and American society and culture at large in a different light.

Going to the grocery store with him was a revelation: where I had fallen into the habit of seeing all the processed and packaged foods negatively, he saw them quite differently. While they do tend to be less nutritious, they still offer individuals a choice—and that choice is something that D said is severely lacking in Belarus. As a former Soviet bloc country—one still under the thumb of its own dictator, Lukashenko—much of what’s imported comes from Russia or other former Soviet countries. As I understand it from him, if one company or producer supplies an item, that’s good enough. And why bother trying to improve the quality, or expand the variety? People will buy what’s available ... customer service is apparently a concept that doesn’t get much attention there. Seeing the issues through his eyes impressed upon me anew that I am fortunate to be able to choose among organic and locally produced foods, non-organic produce trucked to supermarkets, and processed, packaged foods. Yeah, I don’t foresee ever voluntarily switching from homemade scalloped potatoes to the boxed variety, but the choice does exist for me.

The differences between D’s perspective and those of Lobo’s first brood were particularly interesting. I think he is around the same age as Lobo’s eldest. While they all are above 18 years old, still live with us, have never had a job outside the home, and only barely contribute to the running of the household (the aforementioned dinner and dishes rotations, plus a weekly cleaning rotation), D is married; he’s been fairly independent for some time, as he left his native village for university in Minsk and rarely returns to visit his mother. (In fact, he was bemused by how seldom he or his friends make such trips in the context of our travels: given Belarus’ size, they can’t be much more than a 1.5-hour drive from family—here, that was about the drive to the airport.) D groks making his own way in a way Lobo’s first brood still appear to lack. In a discussion of intellectual property, one of them remarked that he needs some kind of protection for his art if he’s to make money from it. D and I both pounced on that, telling him that he has no basis for expecting to be able to earn a living in that way—if there’s a market, he can work to meet it, but if not, he cannot force one to appear. Nor can he keep one alive forever—hence the need to be flexible and willing to do a variety of things to meet one’s obligations. I think the gears are still grinding in the would-be artist’s head from that conversation.

This ramble is getting quite long already, and I’ve barely scratched the surface ... perhaps I can sum up what I’m trying to portray, in observing that D’s attitude—again, not unique to him based on my interactions with other Baltic and eastern European students—is one of openness and a willingness to try new things. He was afraid of heights, he said ... but when we visited the Space Needle (neatly dodging the “required” photo-taking of us all), he came along without hesitation. D stayed inside for just a couple of minutes, and then ventured out; we ended up needing to drag him back inside so we could go to dinner! Similarly, D had water/seasickness concerns. Instead of declining our suggestion to go for a whale-watching tour, he embraced the opportunity and ended up enjoying the ferry ride to the island, as well as the three-hour adventure in the much smaller tour boat. How many of us not only endure our limitations, but embrace them to some degree even as we complain about and decry them? We too often allow problems to envelope us in cocoon of familiarity, but it can become a prison that may slowly constrict us—especially health issues for which we turn to pills rather than substantive changes. I am a little embarrassed to say that I recognized that pattern in myself.

D and I did get back to that “all freedom is personal” conversation. He told me that the Belarusian word [Belarusian is different from Russian, beginning with a slightly different alphabet] for freedom has the personal element built in, so to speak; and I apologized for wasting their time pointing out the obvious. We both laughed ... but I think we both understand better how the situation came about.

My experiences and conversations with D have left me wondering if we westerners have become too complacent in our success. In particular, Americans—having been taught that some thinkers and soldiers secured the country’s freedom a couple of centuries back, with a couple of nice, archived documents affirming the tale—may have been lulled into the mistaken belief that all the hard work has been completed. The abundance of our choices—and for many, the “American Dream” become consumerist trap—make it easy to avoid the hard facts before us: the federal government has expanded and is out of control, regulating far too much of our lives, wrecking markets with its continual interventionism, and stealing what little wealth we can accrue via the debasement of its fiat currency. Most state governments aren’t much better. Far too many freedom-loving individuals have been sucked into one or more of these traps as well—or worse: in our failure to see that we often forge our own chains, we place responsibility for them on the state, when all we need to do is give a good tug and the chains will fall away. Lewlew recently elaborated on this idea quite nicely. The desire for freedom is inherent within us; and I daresay that even amongst those who aren’t libertarians or anarchists, who consider themselves a good Republican or Democrat, both the cognitive and the real dissonance between what one thinks and/or believes and what one does can be a deep source of unhappiness and stress.

photo of drivers avoiding a security gate Longtime readers have seen this photo before; and what I wrote in that context remains relevant today. It is also every bit as true for physical obstacles as it is mental ones. Focusing on the state and the ways its agents might impinge upon one’s freedom too often can lead one to doing the impinging oneself; fear frequently contributes to choosing that course. What with D’s presence and my recent computer issues, I had forgotten about today’s significance for liberty. I hope that the rebellions taking place across the country are but a first step for participants. Starving the state is an essential component of reclaiming one’s liberty; and I hope the largely symbolic tea parties under way reflect a growing swell of income tax resistance. Small rebellions can be the spark to more substantive ones.

To reclaim freedom, there must be a desire for it, along with the willingness to rebel. We may differ in our visions of where the flame of liberty burns brightest, but for me today, reflecting on the many ideas my month with D produced, I am content just to know that there are many sparks spread across the globe. The bureaucrats and controllers cannot, and will not, quash them all.

Dawning realizations

That was the dawn of my realization that different cultures produce differing perspectives on what freedom is, and how best to achieve it.

That would seem to be saying that freedom is relative, in people's minds; if they attain their idea of what freedom is from their cultures, then historical *perspective* (as opposed to historical knowledge per se) is the dominating influence. Understanding of history is abandoned in the knowledge and experience of here-and-now--and would explain why "history repeats itself" over and over. People in general do not apply history to their everyday lives.

This would also agree with your comment that:

In particular, Americans—having been taught that some thinkers and soldiers secured the country’s freedom a couple of centuries back, with a couple of nice, archived documents affirming the tale—may have been lulled into the mistaken belief that all the hard work has been completed.

If we tend to lose our 'lean and hungry' attitude as we distanced ourselves from the fight for freedom, there might even be an "excuse" for sheeple's attitude, since they, maybe more than others, tend to gain their historical perspective from what they experience or have been told, rather than a true understanding of historical events.

He told me that the Belarusian word [Belarusian is different from Russian, beginning with a slightly different alphabet] for freedom has the personal element built in, so to speak;...

I wonder how the 'personal element' in the Belarusian word is applied. Does this mean that those who fight for freedom in Belarus see that fight ONLY on a personal basis, and must they be convinced to fight together... or do the majority of Belarusians willingly come together as a group or nation when their freedoms are threatened?

Much to ponder

Pagan, you raise many excellent points—and I will say for now that I don’t have the answers to some of your questions. Unfortunately, the rest will have to wait, as I’m on a deadline and have exceeded my scheduled time here already.

Good points

Pagan - following on from Sunni :-) - you've raised good points, again, particularly the following:

"If we tend to lose our 'lean and hungry' attitude as we distanced ourselves from the fight for freedom, there might even be an "excuse" for sheeple's attitude, since they, maybe more than others, tend to gain their historical perspective from what they experience or have been told, rather than a true understanding of historical events."

I've just been reading the download chapters of Gatto's (excellent) underground guide to American educational history (see previous link here on Sunni's site) and was thinking again about who gets to tell history, and the impact it has on current readers regarding what is told and how (if anything of any real substance at all, aside from rote learning of names and dates, instead of context).

Thank you both.

I noted also the point regarding the value of having choice when it comes to consumer items (the flipside of which is that the paramters of such choice is really made by others, and hence can have the effect of providing an illusory feeling of individuality).

Cheers.

On choices and Gatto

Hi Shaun. I’m happy to see that you’re finding Gatto’s book worthwhile. I have a review of it still incubating. Probably just as well, as posting it here means you’ll be able to comment on it if you’ve a mind to.

Regarding your closing observation:

I noted also the point regarding the value of having choice when it comes to consumer items (the flipside of which is that the paramters of such choice is really made by others, and hence can have the effect of providing an illusory feeling of individuality).

Well, yes, as far as that goes ... But short of doing everything oneself, one has to depend upon others and their choices and parameters to some degree, no? I don’t necessarily think that’s a bad thing, in and of itself. It’s much less expensive for me in time and money to trust a local raw milk dairy farm than to go through all I’d need to do in order to get and maintain my own herd of cows or goats. And of course I don’t trust any bureaucracy, of government or corporate stripe, nearly as much as I do pretty much any smaller, more private entity (barring evidence against them).

Actually...

What I had in mind was the profusion of 'choice' offered by the different 'Fabmart' variants in the consumer world, rather than your raw milk farmer - which is where I'd be going, too, as that is one choice rather unlikely to be found in the consumer mainstream. This is what I meant by 'choices' being made by others - i.e., you usually only get to pick from many similar, often cloned products that fall within broader product attributes decided by corporations with their best interests in mind, not yours (although they like consumers to think that they're 'empowered', even when that is not the case at all) :-)

Interesting questions indeed

Never having met a Belarusian (that I know of) I have no insight into the way they think, but I understood the "personal" freedom idea in the context of individual ownership. As far as I can see, there is no barrier at all to voluntary cooperation in that model.

Personal freedom translates into personal responsibility. If some take that to the extreme of refusing to work in concert with others, especially to defend that freedom, I'd think that would be a very unusual aberration rather than normal to any culture or race.

What concept or history is NOT "relative?" Each person sees and experiences everything through the filter of their own understanding and prior experience, culture and education, etc. How many things in this world are regarded as absolute truth by everyone? :)

I'd like to add a tiny bit

Sunni's observation:

In particular, Americans—having been taught that some thinkers and soldiers secured the country’s freedom a couple of centuries back, with a couple of nice, archived documents affirming the tale—may have been lulled into the mistaken belief that all the hard work has been completed.

Is a good summary of the broader culture, says I. The complacency noted is, to some extent, reminiscent of the 'benevolent universe' doctrine which, when Immanuel Kant was going to school, was rightly derided as 'the pillow of lazy minds.' Seriously asking the question, "do we really live in a state of political liberty?" or to even presume to define the phrase, 'political liberty' in a meaningful way is to tread into the 'serious stuff' and it's been my experience that people are afraid of the application of critical reason that leads one there. To use a pop-culture reference; we may call it Stupid Spoiled Whore syndrome. The horror in the response of "well I don't even know what that means," is no different from the cry of "USA! USA! USA!" The question is, did the rot infiltrate the culture or is it actually a symptom? That such a thing could happen may be the result of some other, more fundamental problem.

One further gains perspective on, if not its nature, then a certain subset of the pathology of it (in the sense of its development) in looking at late-imperial societies of the past. Put in other terms, the culture has all the behavioral signs of being just at the edge of that same abyss over which Rome tumbled full force. The Visigoths, Vandals and others didn't slay the beast, they picked flesh out of an already hollow husk.

The chicken or the egg?

The question is, did the rot infiltrate the culture or is it actually a symptom? That such a thing could happen may be the result of some other, more fundamental problem.

That's a good point.

An investigation could be made into when the transition came about in America - when we stopped thinking for ourselves and opted out of freedom - and the "rot" began to take over. Shaun's reference to Gatto may well be the key.

While other factors may have brought down Rome (or did they?), the educational "ideal" of Dewey deserves some blame for America's cultural downfall; not just affluence and safety on the surface, but the interpretation from within of what freedom really means.

If it takes some 200 years for a country to disintegrate from freedom's glory to collective gut-rot (I've read that's the average time it takes for a country's downfall), that's more than enough time for generations to be "educated" into the subtleties of being taken care of. And especially true when the Constitution had a 'follow-the-leader' mentality built into it from the beginning (with the Prussian educational system waiting to be installed).

I think it's more likely the chicken and the egg existed in tandem, complementing each other: as the industrial revolution rose, our politico-educational system went South. It's unlikely that each alone could have resulted in what we have today.

But the answer leads to yet another step

Now that we've put up a hypothesis (a good one, says I) as to the efficient cause of the present cultural rot, an educational system that did exactly what it was designed to do, a further question has to be asked; how did the ideas, Pragmatism, infiltrate so successfully into the academic culture? Pragmatism never took hold in France or Germany where, for example, Kantian rationalism was still riding high - if in a filtered form through the Post-Kantians - while it did have some influence in Britain. There are certain historical lineages going back beyond Roger Bacon to the Oxford school, a conservative theology and metaphysics combined with a keener interest in empirical studies, which might explain this. The refusal to critically examine the rational (or irrational) assumptions implicit in a given set of actions leads to an inability to understand that such a thing as the assumption is even happening at all. But the problem still remains; the culture in America was still ripe for this sort of thing.

Progress and War?

...a further question has to be asked; how did the ideas, Pragmatism, infiltrate so successfully into the academic culture?

But it's easy to insinuate pragmatism into academics, at every level. Any system or philosophy that manipulates or controls others is ripe for pragmatic solutions, no matter how innocent the original intent. Sooner or later, educators yield to the temptation of trying something new "to see if it works."

But the problem still remains; the culture in America was still ripe for this sort of thing.

I think progress itself, starting with the Industrial Revolution, may have had something to do with that. It made things easier for the average Joe (whoever that is) to: work less... play more... get an education... and reach goals that were heretofore never dreamed. It gave parents hope for their children, and determination to see them reach potential (sometimes beyond the kids' desires or abilities). It allowed time to dream and save and plan long-range; to invest and acquire valuables; and, for those so inclined, to become lazy and want to do nothing at the same time that government was pushing its own nanny agenda. Right on down to the present.

There's nothing wrong with progress that a little self-responsibility can't improve. But many people don't know how to evaluate "the good life" in moral terms.

Yet another factor: "War is the health of the state." We've had so many wars and rumors of wars, hot wars, cold war, wars on terrorism and on drugs, and, increasingly, war on our daily lives - all of which affected both pocketbook and stress levels - that people haven't had time, money or inclination to think and act coherently beyond what they were told. This is especially true since WWII, during which wars, as well as progress, have increased to a constant rate of spin.

Not trying to excuse it, just stating a possible rationale. Emotional multi-tasking with frequent adrenalin highs is neither natural nor healthy in humans (or any animal), and often results in a tired and dependent apathy rather than fighting the system.

I can't agree that it's

I can't agree that it's "rot."

Shifting emphasis and tensions yes.

Arguably almost every American enjoys more freedom now than they did during the 1950s. Now whether those freedoms are the ones you consider important, that isn't the point.

And of course, there are vital freedoms that are being threatened today.

Nor will I agree that there was a time somewhere in the world when the majority of people weren't waiting for their leader.

Read the Anti-Federalist Papers. Or some of the Civil War diaries. Or the writings during the women's suffrage movement. Or all the stuff that led into the Civil Rights movement. Or for that matter some of Plato.

People had to be convinced, coerced, and occasionally sold a bill of goods so the change could happen.

The herd is always going to be afraid of change.

The political system is always designed to handle the last emergency, never the "current" one.

Most people are comfortable following the herd, they don't have to ask questions and they don't have to assume responsibility. The herd will never do the hard stuff until they have no choice.

The worthy choices are never the easy ones.

How did we get here?

Most people are comfortable following the herd, they don't have to ask questions and they don't have to assume responsibility. The herd will never do the hard stuff until they have no choice.

But I think the question here is WHY they're so comfortable following the herd, or following the leader of a herd.

Humans are not by nature - at least I never thought we were - of a *herd* mentality. Social animals, yes, but I differentiate between 'social' and 'herd'; perhaps I've been wrong in this.

Humans can think for themselves and, in fact, have no real instinct for anything. This unique ability causes them to HAVE to rely on themselves, and to assume self-responsibility in order to stay alive. (And I would think, being a part of their nature, it would encourage them to WANT to be self-responsible.) I wonder where the 'herd mentality' comes from in the first place, and that's what I'm addressing.

The term, "rot," is rather harsh, but no harsher than some things libertarians have called society. In any case, our *culture* is what has rotted out, like a tree, from the inside - still standing, but with no living wood, no backbone, no heart.

Every faction is going in different directions with no real interaction, no attempt to understand or tolerate each other, no resources to find themselves, seemingly a total ignorance of the past with no goal for the future. (In fact since the 70's, I have a sense that America as a country has given up on the future, does not even try to figure where it wants to go.) The last three administrations - two Bush, one Clinton - have left us overwhelmed and beaten; they've sucked the heart out of us. I think "rot" is an appropriate word, under those circumstances. (But you can thank Brian C. Nickerson for using the word first.)

It's happened before. The

It's happened before.

The "Lost Generation."

And if you'll pardon me saying so, as long as you are blaming the administrations for how you feel and how the people around you feel, that seems pretty herd-like to me.

How has our culture "rotted out?"

Artistically, socially, scientifically, things keep happening despite our best and worst intentions. Things keep changing. Things keep evolving. Of course it's not what it was yesterday. It's the promise of tomorrow.

That's the wonder to me.

Who are we?

Well, I guess it depends on what you call "culture" - AND it depends on what you *expect* from your society. I have noticed a definite deterioration in American social patterns over the past 60 years, including but not limited to:

1) The educational system: The teaching ability of teachers; the lack of respect between teachers and students (going both ways); the mistreatment of students including police in the schools and assumption of guilt, and zero tolerance toward ANY infraction, however slight, from kindergarten through high school. (Do school systems even know what is the norm for a child any more, and what can be expected from them at each age level?)

2) Entertainment/media: Where to find talent is a real question these days. TV shows are not funny, and what is considered funny is frequently couched in sarcasm and put-downs. Yet true comedic talent, such as a Danny Thomas, would be forced off the air today for political incorrectness. Mainstream media was more objective even 20 years ago than it is today (at least it still TRIED for the most part; today it doesn't bother), and news shows were not expected to be entertaining; while entertainers were not so busy espousing 'causes' that they rudely ignore their fans, break cameras, throw food and start fights. (They expect to be taken *seriously*? I think not!)

3) Attitudes: RUDE. INTOLERANT. SELFISH (and I don't mean in the Ayn Rand sense). IMPOLITE. MEAN. UNCARING. DEPENDENT and DEMANDING at the same time. INSENSITIVE. CRUDE. And - dare I say this? - UNCHRISTIAN. (I am an atheist, but I know what a "Christian" attitude is, and it doesn't include what's on my list.) I don't want to bring back another era, but I sure would like to bring back a different set of attitudes.

4) Authority figures: Cops on the beat don't exist any more - that goes without saying. There IS no beat, no neighborhood backup or individual you can trust. And politicians were always, well... politicians. But cops break down doors now. Judges and lawyers decide your case before you even enter court. Local politicians don't know or care who you are as long as you pay their rising taxes and don't buck their plans. Even EMT's are so wrapped up in their own authority that they ignore your concerns while tending your needs. (I've seen this happen, and I've heard patients complain about it.)

I could go on and on. I realize that not everybody acts this way; there are a lot of good people out there, I believe the majority of Americans are "good." But cultural deterioration has been ongoing. Our mores have changed, and continue to change, not for the better.

I'm not talking about technology here, or progress, or innovation; I'm talking about *people*. People are what makes the culture. Government can't do it. No matter how much we complain about its influence on our lives, it is *people* who are America, people who dictate what our "culture" will be.

We've moved too fast, and allowed ourselves to be influenced by others. Too many factions want to take over our lives, so we don't recognize ourselves. We've been jerked around so much - by government, and big business, and wars and fear, and by every other country's culture - so we don't know who we are *as a people*, and we have no real culture of our own any more. We've moved from Free and Independent... to Young, Brash and Growing... to The Greatest Power in the World... to WHAT?

Where are we going, as a culture?

P.S: In America, The Lost Generation ended up in The Great Depression and then another World War. We were still lost.

Pagan, I can tell you are

Pagan,

I can tell you are concerned. I think you are right to be. I'm just not sure about your examples.

1). The educational system - Perhaps I am being extremely naive, but it seems to me that the failure of American education is directly proportional to the involvement of the Federal government and mandatory attendance. How many of the problems you cite would go away if the students wanted to be there and had to constantly prove it by their work and behavior? I don't see that failure in private schools where the parents have to pay. When the public schools are a step or two removed from a prison system, of course the kids don't want to be there. Perhaps if it were less a "system" and more a place where education had to be earned, these problems would solve themselves.

2). Entertainment - While you are citing Danny Kaye, let's not forget things like Beulah, Amos 'n' Andy, The Today Show (complete with J. Fred Muggs), or professional wrestling. What we remember is what was kept, and often what was good enough to make it into reruns, syndication, or video release. Ask any woman that you know if they would like to switch places with the female characters on Donna Reed, I Love Lucy, or Gunsmoke. You're overlooking the casual racism (try Googling "racist tv commercials") and sexism up that made television until the late 1970s. I know of some 60 Minutes stories from the 1970s and 1980s that were extremely biased. Yes, there is more entertainment now, and we remember the bad stuff. I'm still trying to figure out why the History Channel is running shows on Biblical prophecy, or what professional wrestling has to do with science fiction. I can't stand most of what is on television. I'm just not convinced that it is substantially less in cultural tone than what went before.

3). Attitudes - see my comments on racism and sexism in entertainment above. To that I will add the huge assumption that the Government Authority Figure is Always Right and You Are Not Allowed to Question That. And that brings us right to

4). The Authority Figure. I maintain that the "honest cop on the beat" was the EXCEPTION and not the rule. Corrupt judges and lawyers have been around as long as there has been a "system."

I have a bias too. I believe that freedom of choice applies to more than economic theory, it applies to life. I've more respect for the moral individual who chooses NOT to be a gangbanger even though they have that option. Good choices and bad choices, but the choice is up to the individual.

That means that if people are really important, if the individual is vital to our society, we have to let them choose for themselves. No taking away the "bad choices," no stacking the deck ahead of time.

It has to be freely chosen, or it's not a real choice.

Oh, and the "Lost Generation?" Hardly anyone remembers it now of course, but that was the Jazz Age too. That was when Southern blacks broke away from the Jim Crow laws by moving. That was also the days of the 19th Amendment. That was the time when cultural adversity led to a blooming of American culture. Would you throw that away along with the Lost Generation?

Escape from Freedom

It has been a while since I have mentioned the book Escape From Freedom by Erich Fromm. I read it immediately after reading 1984, where he had written the post script in my copy of the book. Fromm examined why people are quick to submit to a larger group. He traced it back to the middle ages when trade guilds added identity and security to one's position in life. After this trend faded, people were apparently looking for other groups to be associated with in order to have the security of an identity. Even in a Dom-Sub relationship, he proposed that the motivations for both parties were the same: to be part of the group to enjoy the perceived security therein.

I can see your concern, Pagan, for the lack of identity in the same light that Fromm was speaking of. This results in what is a herd mentality, whether we as humans are inclined to that state naturally or not. Even those who have a strong sense of self and identity (such as many in our little movement) still hesitate to stray from the herd as far as obedience goes due to the fact that is a definite risk to be outside the relative security of the herd.

Many of the problems you all have discussed may indeed be helped by allowing and encouraging individuals to establish an identity outside of their nationality, socio-economic class, and education level. Of course, just the opposite is the SOP in the machine of our sanctioned social culture.

PoS

Murphy's Bye-Laws

More Fromm

You might (or might not!) be interested to know that my PhD researched Fromm's 'Marketing Character', and was inspired by his book 'The Sane Society' (which led to an Honours essay of mine once called 'The Insane Society', as well as a great deal of my fiction, particularly my dystopic novel 'Mallcity 14').

If you have any further interest, Sunni has my email address, and you're welcome to get in touch (and, conversely, I won't be offended if you don't).

Cheers :-)

I started into...

...Man for Himself shortly after I finished Escape From Freedom, but didn't make it too far. I don't really know enough about psychology to make any judgements as to the validity of any of what he said in Escape. It seemed to make sense at the time, but his conclusions (or solutions?) were still wrong in my opinion, IIRC. I do have The Sane Society as well, but with no immediate plans to pick any of his books up in the immediate future. Too much other stuff, I guess.

PoS

Murphy's Bye-Laws

Fromm is infamous in Snake circles

In my interview of Shaun, I dodged the issue when he mentioned Fromm; but Fromm wrote the only book I have ever found so awful that I threw it away rather than risk it influencing some other reader. I don’t remember the title, but it may well have been Escape From Freedom, given the context in which this little drama played out. I have no interest in attempting to remember or rediscover which it was.

All that hissed, the event was highly educational for me: I discovered that my mind is not infinitely flexible with respect to entertaining other ideas; and that academics can be just as biased (dare I say “deluded” given my confession a moment ago?) as anyone. Which is not to imply that good things cannot come from such individuals or their influence on others, obviously ...

Specifics Escape From Me

Sunni,

I had a bit of a time rambling through that book. The main point I took away from it was the need for a strong sense of self and individual identity. This, it was posited, led to a sense of place in society and a sense of security. I thought this was all valid and worthwhile. Kind of like "If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything" shtick.

You can kind of see this in the perpetual battles over personal labels such as "libertarian", "anarcho-capitalist", "American", or "Patriot". It is the pillar of the current political system - identity politics. Put us in groups by race or socio-economic class or religion or whatever, and gain our support via our willing acceptance of the label we feel most strongly about. Fromm's main point of study for Escape were middle class Germans who were the main push for Hitler and the Nazis gaining popular support, incidentally.

PoS

Murphy's Bye-Laws

Aha!

My context was very different, and I don’t think I knew that backdrop to the book. Thank you for illuminating it for me. The Fromm book I read was intended to serve as an example of how freedom is ultimately bad for us.

and more Fromm

I haven't read 'Escape from Freedom', although it is most likely on my bookshelf.

In my own analysis of his criticisms of consumer society, I had to tease apart his general observations from his psychoanalytic background (which, like most things freudian-related, is pure rubbish). I found Fromm's own theories on personality to be rather inconsistent etc, and, basically, rather difficult to say the least to use or validate in any sort of scientific way...hence, I checked his observations against other psychological paradigms, and this ended up being (according to doctoral examiners and subsquent journal peer- reviewers) to be a more successful approach.

But, his basic concerns and observations about consumer society were validated by my (empirical) research (so we concurred on the shape of the iceberg, perhaps, or what was visible, but not with what might be 'under water').

cheers :-)

It took me a bit to remember

It took me a bit to remember where I had posted it.

Pardon, this is from one of my blogs.

Think of it as a signal to noise ratio. You can't turn up the volume and only get the good stuff. Sheer amplification increases the static too.

And as much as I personally would love to premptively cut out the nonsense so we can concentrate on the "important stuff,' it wouldn't work. That nonsense is absolutely necessary to put the good ideas and practices in context. That nonsense is also absolutely necessary to frustrate the exceptional so they come up with new ideas.

I come from a long line of farmers. My maternal grandfather stopped being a farmer when they moved to Arizona, but after he retired he gardened on about an acre and a half until he died. Good farmers and good gardeners will tell you that concentrating on just one crop doesn't work well. Some plants put nitrogen into the soil, some take it out. Some put certain nutrients into the soil while taking certain others out, others take out different nutrients and put still more back into the soil. Some years it's best to let the field lay fallow. And you still can't control what your neighbor grows, or if his crop is better than yours.

One of my root beliefs is that if I can't convince you to change your mind, I have no business trying to force you. If my ideas have any worth, they have to be able to stand on their own merit.

Sometimes life conflicts with my ideas and I have to change them or drop them entirely because they don't work. Ideas HAVE to be constantly tested and tempered by experience to prove themselves. It's an ongoing test, a trial by fire and ice that never really ends.

For an idea to be good, it has to stand out in the nonsense and noise.

Here's the thing that most people forget. We don't always know if an idea is good until years or decades or centuries later. The good ideas will stick around, being tested, becoming part of other ideas. The bad ideas will weed themselves out.

Eventually.

But that means that at any given time, there is never going to be only Truth and Perfection. There will be a few good ideas in a sea of nonsense. Our part is not to judge which ideas will stay, but to use the ideas that work today.

You see rot. I see fertilizer.

Sound ideas

Some very sound ideas above, and clearly and neatly expressed, particularly:

"...if I can't convince you to change your mind, I have no business trying to force you. If my ideas have any worth, they have to be able to stand on their own merit.

Sometimes life conflicts with my ideas and I have to change them or drop them entirely because they don't work. Ideas HAVE to be constantly tested and tempered by experience to prove themselves. It's an ongoing test, a trial by fire and ice that never really ends."

and

"We don't always know if an idea is good until years or decades or centuries later."

Thank you.

My pleasure. And thank you.

My pleasure.

And thank you.

Finally, a reply

Pagan wrote in response to one of my statements regarding the influence of culture on one’s perspective of freedom:

That would seem to be saying that freedom is relative, in people's minds; if they attain their idea of what freedom is from their cultures, then historical *perspective* (as opposed to historical knowledge per se) is the dominating influence. Understanding of history is abandoned in the knowledge and experience of here-and-now--and would explain why "history repeats itself" over and over. People in general do not apply history to their everyday lives.

I agree with your interpretation of my comment in the main, but would like to refine it a bit: freedom is individualistic. Social culture can influence one’s definition of freedom, and the ways one pursues it, both positively and negatively; and its influence melds with the individual’s own personal history, e.g., a disposition for independence, one’s interests and skills, and whether rights and property are respected in the family. By looking at the issue at these differing levels, some weird patterns can begin to make sense, such as the phenomenon of some avid hunters not defending 2nd amendment rights across the spectrum.

But writ larger—and more relevant to the point I was trying to make—what I meant is that individuals growing up in post-Soviet countries appear to approach the freedom philosophy with a less theoretical bent than Americans. Chances are very high that they’ve not only heard stories from their parents and grandparents, but have experienced some vestiges of that era themselves. (D and I touched on this some; and what he said affirms my statement.)

If we tend to lose our 'lean and hungry' attitude as we distanced ourselves from the fight for freedom, there might even be an "excuse" for sheeple's attitude, since they, maybe more than others, tend to gain their historical perspective from what they experience or have been told, rather than a true understanding of historical events.

I have been mulling this same thing myself of late; and within the past couple of days, saw an essay or blog post exploring it a bit. Sorry I don’t recall the specifics better—hopping between two machines has rendered my already wobbly memory quite shaky.

As one who came to appreciate the necessity of historical context rather late in life, I may be more inclined than some to want to “forgive” others for uncritically accepting the Received Wisdom of Our State Indoctrinators; the founding’s a nice story that begs for belief at surface levels. Yet to begin to gain a deeper understanding requires investing time and effort into finding and considering other perspectives, because one’s values and biases shade pretty much everything a person thinks and does—and historians are not immune to that fact of human nature.

And last, for now (waffles are waiting for me!):

I wonder how the 'personal element' in the Belarusian word is applied. Does this mean that those who fight for freedom in Belarus see that fight ONLY on a personal basis, and must they be convinced to fight together... or do the majority of Belarusians willingly come together as a group or nation when their freedoms are threatened?

We didn’t explore this thread much, primarily because our conversation arose fairly late one evening and my brain was too mushy to even think of it. My guess, though, is that like Americans, or Swedes, or any other group of pro-freedom individuals, how it’s applied varies. And of course, in Belarus the matter is complicated by the presence of a fairly heavy-handed dictatorship. As one example, their KGB equivalent has been known to lean very heavily on intelligent young people whom they want in their service ... so pro-freedom activism is a much riskier proposition for them. Thus it should come as no surprise that many want to emigrate, nor that many accept the risks inherent in participating in the Liberty English Camps or other pro-freedom conferences abroad—the desire for real freedom burns strongly.